The *real* tensions inside Israel — with Micah Goodman

Over the past 16 weeks, Israel has experienced one of the biggest protest movements since its founding. On the surface, these protests were about proposed judicial reforms. But was something deeper going on -- for both sides of this debate? On a recent trip to Israel, Dan sat down with Dr. Micah Goodman to better understand the forces shaping this debate.

Micah, who has been on our podcast before, is on the speed-dial of a number of Israeli political leaders. He hosts the most downloaded podcast series in Israel and his books include bestsellers like Catch-67: The Left, the Right, and the Legacy of the Six-Day War and, most recently, The Wondering Jew: Israel and the Search for Jewish Identity.

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Transcript

DISCLAIMER: THIS TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN CREATED USING AI TECHNOLOGY AND MAY NOT REFLECT 100% ACCURACY.

[00:00:00] The right feels, for the past 75 years, we were screwed by the left. The left feels, during the next 75 years, we're going to be screwed by the right. It's not just a argument about constitutional law. It's a clash of emotions between a tribe that's terrified that Israel is becoming an Israel they won't want to live in, in the future, and a tribe that feels like, for the past 75 years, it should have been different.

And now, that's what we have here, a clash of Past and future.

Over the past 16 weeks, Israel has experienced one of the biggest protest movements since its founding. On the surface, this was about proposed judicial reforms. But was the debate really about judicial reforms? Or was there something deeper going on? That's why I wanted to get together with Mika Goodman when I was just in [00:01:00] Israel.

Mika, who's been on this podcast before, is on the speed dial of a number of Israeli political leaders. He is a polymath, having written books ranging from biblical lessons from the modern age to Israel's geopolitics. Mika also hosts the most downloaded podcast in Israel. His books include Catch 67, The Left, The Right, and The Legacy of the Six Day War, and most recently, The Wandering Jew, Israel, and The Search for Jewish Identity.

Not only have all of Mika's books been bestsellers in Israel, and some of which have been big sellers in the U. S. as well, in English, but he essentially created a new genre, books that bring core texts of Jewish thought to a general secular audience. Mika Goodman on the real story going on in Israel right now and its lasting implications.

This is Call Me Back. And I'm pleased to welcome back to this podcast my longtime [00:02:00] friend Mika Goodman. We are sitting here. Somewhere between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea in Israel, uh, Mika, thanks for coming on. It's great to be here. Uh, Mika, the one affiliation, he has many affiliations, but the one affiliation I'm most interested in today is, uh, you are the host of Mifleger HaMachshavot, the, uh, Israeli podcast, Hebrew language podcast, which the translation is party of ideas or, or party of thoughts.

And what's most interesting to me about this podcast Is, uh, one, I have friends on the Israeli right who are infuriated by some of what they hear on this podcast. And I have friends on the Israeli left who are infuriated by what they hear on this podcast. So, whether they're angry or happy or whatever, they're listening.

This podcast has become a platform or a convening place for these ideas that, whether people agree with them or disagree with them, they feel they can't be ignored. It is the opposite of an echo chamber. [00:03:00] And most importantly, it's the number one podcast in Israel. To be clear, I remember a while ago, this podcast was like number one in politics.

It was the number one, like, in kind of politics and news. Now it is the number one podca podcast. You're like the Joe Rogan of Israel, okay? I know you don't want to be compared to Joe Rogan, so maybe I won't compare you. So what, before we get into the substance of what's going on here, that may actually be the best entry point into what's going on here.

What are you talking about on this podcast that is making it? Where such a big conversation is happening, and where all these people from all walks of, of political life and ideological life, and when I say political, not, not, I mean point of view, not, these aren't professional political people that are listening to it necessarily.

Why is this? It's where they want to be having their conversation. Well, I think, first of all, it says something about Israelis. If this podcast is the number one podcast, what does that say about, not about the podcast, but about Israelis? Because this is not a podcast about politics as a [00:04:00] horse race. We don't try to describe what's the secret ambition of Bibi and what does Gantz really want to achieve.

It's not about personalities. It's not about ambitions. It's only about Ideas. And the success of this podcast, um, it's me and my colleague, Efrat Shapira Rosenberg from Beit Avi Chai. The success of our podcast says something about the power of ideas. Israelis are attracted to big ideas. It's a podcast about the big ideas that are behind and are energizing the small politics.

Always or in this moment. The entire podcast is about ideas, and now, and once we start discussing the big ideas behind this moment, our podcast became number one. Everyone is trying to analyze, what is the secret agenda of different politicians? What's their weaknesses? What's And like, it's usually podcasts and pundits discuss Me and [00:05:00] Efrat, we discuss ideas, and shockingly, that attempt to discuss the ideas behind the politics became very popular in Israel.

The second thing I think that we have to understand here, that we discuss every idea we present, we give it the best arguments. We see every idea from all sides in its best light. That's I think the only way to really understand ideas is to be the fan of every idea you discuss. If it's an idea from the left, we're a fan of the idea from the left.

If it's an idea from the right, we're fans of that idea. And that's how we bring the best out of these ideas. And this. This podcast might have an impact on trying to heal polarization, because I think the best, the most healthiest way to heal polarization is to turn the other side from threatening to interesting.

And the way to turn the other side, if you're a right winger, so it's the left, and if you're the left, so it's the right, the best way to turn them from so threatening, people feel like they're threatened by the ideas of the other side, is not by convincing them that these [00:06:00] ideas are good ideas, but showing them they're interesting ideas.

And when I'm. I feel less threatened and more curious about the other side. I think that could have an effect that could heal polarization. So those are the two important things I have to say about this podcast. It's about ideas and it's, and, and the fact that Israelis are listening to it, it means I think Israelis are searching for in this very polarized moment for a sense of unity behind ideas, not behind personalities.

Okay. So before we get into. Trying to diagnose what, which you do a lot on your podcast, diagnosing what's really, you know, they say in Hollywood, you know, every movie there's like There's, like, the story, and then there's, like, the real story. Right, right. There's, like, it's, like, it's, so, there's the story of the judicial reforms, and then there's, like, the real story.

And you, on your podcast, the real story, like, what's really going on underneath the story. Can you define, first, who we're talking about? And what I mean by that is, you say the left and the right. [00:07:00] Who's the right? Because, because this, this also, it gets, the, the punditry tends to make it a very one dimensional conversation.

That's right. So we shouldn't use the words left and right anymore, especially not discussing the debates we're having in Israel today. We have a camp in Israel, which is not a small camp, but not a very large camp, that supports the judicial reform of Yariv Levin. Yariv Levin is the justice minister in the Bibi Netanyahu led government.

He's a member of Likud, senior member of Likud. And he's been one of the two key architects of the judicial reform. That's right. And then we have a very large camp, and I would say almost all the people that support the reform are right wingers, hardcore right wingers. But then there's a camp that's against these reforms, and these are not only left wingers.

These are left wingers, centrists, and some right wingers are very much against these reforms. So right now, Israel does not divide right versus left. At this moment, it's divided pro reform. or against reform. I think that's how Israel is divided today. And both sides make very interesting arguments. Both sides are very [00:08:00] threatening, I mean, to each other.

But in my podcast, trying to show they're also very interesting. Okay, now where, just, and then just defining who's, who, who fits in where. Where does the, um, religious segment of the right block fit into this? So the ultra orthodox, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi. Very pro reform. Very much pro reform. Okay, and then the national religious, Smotrich, Ben Gvir.

Yes, I think the religious community in Israel is kind of split around these reforms. The political representation of the national religious community, Smotrich, they are very much pro reform, but there are, I don't think there's a small amount. of religious Israelis. Keeper wearing Israelis are actually against these reforms.

Right. And I've, we've seen this in the, the um, in the protests, but specifically in Jerusalem, where you see keeper wearing people who very likely could have voted for Likud or voted for the national religion. Okay. And are against the reform. Okay. So now in your podcast. [00:09:00] You talk, trying to understand, like I said, what's, what's going on and then the what's really going on.

There's a tendency to just do an x ray of the Israeli public. That's right. With an x ray you miss a lot. That's right. Right? And then, unlike, unlike an MRI, with an MRI you get to see like the soft tissue that's really causing the pain. Whereas the x ray You can completely miss what's really going on. So you trying your podcast to do an MR mri?

That's right. So there, so let's do an MR mri. That, that, this is a great observation of my colleague Fra in my podcast, which she said, okay, we're discussing ideas and the clash of ideas, but as that's what's really happening. Clash of ideas, that's the x-ray. But maybe there's something bigger going on. And here's, I think the MRI, here's, it's not only a clash of ideas, it's a clash of very passionate emotions.

Now, if you listen to the words, to the narratives of both sides, you see two very different narratives. That's what we'll try to do now. You listen to people on the right, people that are very much pro the reform. And you ask them, why, why are you for [00:10:00] this reform? Why is this reform so important? So some people might give you some kind of a sophisticated constitutional answer that Aharon Barak's judicial, uh, uh, uh, revolution in the nineties, he went too far.

We have to correct it. Okay. You might have that. That nerdy, academic, constitutional scholar answer. But most people will answer very differently. Samuel mentioned the Alta Lena. Okay, so you gotta explain what the Alta Lena is. Okay. Samuel mentioned the moment in 1948 where David Ben Gurion shot On a boat filled with immigrants, Olim, and guns that was, uh, the, uh, of, of Menachem Begin, of the Etzel, of like back then the Israeli right.

And that was a traumatic memory. Some bring back Hold on, just to stay on that, just for our listeners. So Begin was the leader of, uh, uh, an independent, shall we call it, political, uh, movement during the, uh, during the founding years [00:11:00] that had its own militia. And that militia, yeah, it's very, very, it's very, I don't want to get into it, but we will understand why, why the, why the soon to be prime minister of Israel, or he was already was, sorry.

So people may wonder why the prime minister of Israel is shooting at a boat, bringing in arms for the army for, for the army, for Jews. In Israel. So just, just 30 seconds on that. So, I think, so I've been studying this. David McGurin misunderstood Begin completely. He thought that Begin is bringing these guns, and he might use these guns against McGurin himself.

He misunderstood, he projected onto Begin his own anxieties, and he shot down, and I think this is, this is a common theory of what happened, and he tries to shoot down, his soldiers try to shoot down that boat. I think 16 people died that day. I might, I might be confusing that. I think it might be a little bit more.

Six, so at least 16 people die. And, um, that is a very traumatic memory. And that memory of the Al Talena [00:12:00] is a part of the painful memory of the Israeli right. You listen to people and ask, what's the relationship? Why is the Al Talena back? When we discuss the reform. So, so you have another question. There was also a period, by the way, doing, um, um, in the 1940s, where people from Ben Gurion's movement were handing over to the British people from Bacon's movement.

It's called the Saison. It's a very complicated story, but it's also a traumatic story for the Israeli right. So during the British occupation of this area, of, you know, during the British mandate. Ben Gurion was turning over to the British authorities members of his Jewish rivals movement. In a small period called the Saison, the season, the hunting season, actually.

He was doing that. Now he might have had good reasons. I don't want to judge Ben Gurion, he's a giant and I admire him, but that's the narrative. So all these people painful runes. And now they build up. And then you have another [00:13:00] painful runes, the Mizrahi Jews, coming from Arab speaking countries to Israel.

And they feel like they were incredibly mistreated by David Ben Gurion's left wing labor movement. And all, and so you have this frustration being accumulated from the way the Mizrahim were mistreated, from the way the revisionists were mistreated. And it's The revisionists are Bagan's people. Bagan's people, yeah.

And, and, now there is, now a narrative is bought in. They also felt like, in the Oslo Accords, they were mistreated, and Oslo was politically stolen from, like, there is a narrative there, I don't think Oslo meaning the peace process between Israelis and the Palestinians under Rabin and Peres. And, and they think that it, that the way Oslo was passed in the Knesset was in a way that was, um, uh, not fair.

They were cheating. Yeah. And while they were cheating politically, the press and the Supreme Court didn't say anything about it. Right. And then as the narrative goes. And before we get to that even, from 48 [00:14:00] up to, you know, Begin's election say in 77, you had the labor movement having super majorities in the parliament.

Yeah. 70, 80 seats. So it was, Israel was effectively a one party state. That's right. Yeah. And then when the right And if you weren't that That's right. And then, and then the disengagement from Gaza, which is probably the most important open ruin for the Israeli rights. So 2005. 2005. And while there was a disengagement from Gaza, Israel.

And just, just again, so, so Ariel Sharon announces he's going to unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip, which meant. uprooting thousands and thousands of Israeli settlers from their homes from their homes who had been settled there by governments of the left and right going back decades and suddenly that's there was a consensus that these settlers should be living in Gaza and one day the Israeli government says we're pulling you out of your homes we're digging up cemeteries and literally and it's traumatic but was also traumatic is when they were protesting against this engagement So there's stories.

Now, I didn't check out these stories. It's true. It [00:15:00] doesn't matter. They build up to a narrative, right? Fourteen year old girls are thrown into jail. So they appeal to the Supreme Court and as an Israeli journalist Amit Segal says, we called the Supreme Court and no one was at home. No one would listen to us.

Fourteen year old girls. Thrown into jail. For what? For protesting, for, for blocking roads, for blocking roads, trying to fight the disengagement. And, and the Supreme Court enabled the police to use that kind of, or that kind of violence against protesters. So there's a net. So, and so you see there is, I would say 75 years of frustration are built up and now it's all bursting out.

Now, if you want, in a nutshell, the Israeli right, this is what it feels. When we weren't in power, you used your power against us. Now when we're, when we are finally in power, you're taking our power away from us. That's the whole narrative of the judicial reform, that once the right gets [00:16:00] elected, so power shifts from the elected bodies to non elected bodies, to the Supreme Court.

So when, so this is the, this is how the narrative goes. When we weren't in power, you used your, you abused your power, you used it against us. Now we're finally in power. You're taking the power away from us. So this is a narrative of a tribe It's called the political tribe of the right that feels like that for 75 years the political tribe of the rest of the left has Been abusing it has been humiliating it and it and all these years of frustration have built up.

They're saying now It's our time. Finally, we're in power and we're going to keep the power. The power will stay in our hands, in the legislative body, where we're the majority and not move somewhere else. It's not just about what's the constitutional ideal structure of Israel. It's 75 years of built up frustration being exploded as we're talking right now.

Now, when you, now I'm going to change, I'm going to, I'm going to, I want to listen to the other narrative. All right. [00:17:00] There is something else happening in Israel. Then we have the reform, and now we have the reaction to the reform. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis leave their homes every Saturday night, carry an Israeli flag, which by itself is extremely impressive, maybe we'll touch up, we'll discuss that later, protesting passionately against these reforms.

There's a sense that Israel is going through a hostile takeover, that once that, that they are actually canceling the ability of the court system. To, um, cancel political decisions of the governments, of the executive branch of governments and of the Knesset, of the legislative branch of governments. And if you listen to them, they're speaking about how this reform is dangerous, how it might turn Israel into a dictatorship, but you listen deeper, there's something else going on.

You see, you're a tribe. Let's call it the more liberal tribe of Israel. They see [00:18:00] Israel becoming more and more Haredi, more and more ultra Orthodox. And they're reading what different demographers are saying. That in a few years, Israel has a very ultra Orthodox future. They also see the Israeli right, sometimes extreme right, like Itamar Benvir, is getting stronger and stronger.

They see how Well, they look at this government and they say Yeah. And they look at this guy and they say, well, this is how Israel's future looks like demographically. And they are terrified. And this reform is unleashing all that anxiety. They're fighting against the reform, but actually they're expressing their tremendous anxiety.

So we have here two camps with two different sets of emotions. One camp is filled with frustration. The second is filled with anxiety. The frustration of the first camp of the right is built up frustration from our past. Yeah. The anxiety of the second camp is anxiety [00:19:00] from directed at our future. Okay.

Let, let me ask you, you say on, I mean, on your podcast, you make the best case for each side. So let, I want to do that here. You're not getting into the rightness or wrongness of the right's position. You're saying the right is frustrated, has experienced some humiliation, okay? Yeah. Do you think there's there, there substance for, for them to be frustrated and humiliated about person?

Yes. Yes. So can you, I do think it's exaggerated. I do think when, when social media builds a narrative, so there's no subtlety, there's no nuances, but I think there is truth to the fact that, uh, people that when people on the right feel like that way, we were that when they weren't in power, power was used against them.

Sometimes it was abused, was used against them. I think there's truth there and it's also not a coincidence that once the right is in power, power is taken away from legislative branch of government. Now, after saying that me, I'm personally, I'll come out now. I'm against these reforms. I'm against these reforms.

I think they're too radical, too fast, too quick. [00:20:00] And they're creating unintended consequences. Do we need to reform the judicial system of Israel? I think we do. You know, what else thinks we do? 70 percent of Israelis. But here's how the consensus in Israeli, the consensus we see in polls in Israel looks like.

Most Israelis want a reform. They don't want these reforms. They're too quick. They're too radical. They're too dangerous. They'll have unintended consequences. That's what 75 percent of Israelis want. It's true. In the deep left, they think the status quo is sacred, is holy. We can't touch it. And in the right, they want a radical reform.

And now, most Israelis want a moderate reform. It needs to be gradual, and most important, it needs to be the kind of reform that most Israelis could agree with. And on the right having some legitimate issues, or legitimate gripes, concerns, frustrations, among them is lack of representation on the Supreme Court, right?

Yes. From these communities that are not Ashkenazi, you know. Yes, there is, there is a sense that the only body, political body in [00:21:00] Israel that is heterogeneous is the Knesset. Because that's re the Knesset, whether we like it or not, represents who Israel really is. Mm-Hmm. and Israelis look at the Knesset and then they see themselves.

Mm-Hmm. . And they look at the Supreme Court and they don't see themselves. That is true. And the Supreme Court because it had a hand in the justices in choosing their own. Yeah. That is contributed to this sense. That has contributed, but that has also gradually changed in the past. Mm-Hmm. Ever since. I forgot what it was, Gideon Siles Reform.

Yes. 2008. Everything in 2000, that has also changed. This is changing. It has, it's changing naturally. It's changing gradually. And now, you see, we're living in a reverse world. After the French Revolution, being a leftist means you're for change. And being a right winger, you're for status quo. In Israel, because that's whoever sat to the right was for freezing the status quo.

Right. And the, and the National Assembly in France. And whoever sat in the left was for change. Right. And ever since then we have those metaphors. [00:22:00] The more left you are, the more you're for change and you hate the status quo. The more right you are, you're against change and you're for status quo. In Israel now we're upside down, where the left is for the status quo and the right is for radical change and status quo.

So right wingers are thinking like left wingers and left wingers are thinking like right wingers. But most Israelis 70 percent of Israelis, they want, they're not, they don't, they're not that conservative like on the left. They don't think we should conserve the constitutional status quo in Israel. We should make adjustments and changes.

But they shouldn't be radical like Yair Levin, like what the right was starting to promote. Okay, so now on the, you made the, you um, acknowledged some of the legitimate concerns of the right. Let's do now on the left. Well think about it, Israel is suffering from a democracy deficit. It's a very specific deficit that's unique to Israel.

We don't have many checks and balances to begin with. We have a deficit in checks and balances. Think about it. If you're the Israeli prime minister, so [00:23:00] it's like the president of the United States, the decision he makes, there's some decisions that the governor of Texas could override, right? Because there's bodies that are smaller than the state, than the country, they're autonomous.

We don't have any autonomous body that's smaller than our government. If you're, it's smaller than the national government. The national governments, right. If you're European. So there's no state governments, there's no, that's right. If you, and you're not part of any kind of confederation, like eu, right? Oh, if you're European, there's a body, what I mean, body that's larger than you.

Right, right, right. That's what I mean. Right. So that, that's what we call, um. Vertical checks and balances. If you're European, you might be, there's a balance because you're part of the EU that's larger than you. That might, that might limit, that will limit the power of the government. In the United States, there's governments that are smaller.

Then, then the national government in Israel, all power is concentrated in one place. So you ask, okay, but maybe the legislative branch will be a balance to the government in [00:24:00] Israel. It can't balance the government because every government in Israel by definition has a majority in the parliament. If it doesn't have a majority, it wouldn't exist.

So what could balance the power of government? Only one body, the Supreme court. And that is why these are two facts. Here's into two facts. The left is always saying we have a deficit in checks and balances. All we have is a Supreme Court and they're right. The right is saying we have a very, very dominant activist Supreme Court and they're right.

They're both right, but they're, it's connected. We have a very dominant Supreme Court, maybe more than any other country in the world, arguably, because there's nothing else to balance the power of government. Right. And so, so if we want our rights to be protected, not by the goodwill. of our political leaders, but by the structure, the structure of government itself, we need a Supreme Court that can override decisions of the [00:25:00] government and decisions of the Knesset.

Now, did they overstep? Yes, they did. Is there a sense that when you're in government, you're not governing, you're just trying to please the Supreme Court in Israel? Do some politicians have that feeling? Yes. Does it have to change? Of course. But But Y'ariv Levine's reform are de facto cancelling the power of the Supreme Court to override decisions of the Knesset.

So, so, so now to understand the anxiety of people protesting in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, let's think about this. You know that if Y'ariv Levine's reforms pass, Our rights, our liberties, are only protected by the goodwill of these politicians. And then they look at these politicians and who do they see?

Itamar Ben Gvir! And they see some statement that they make, and they have a panic attack. It's a panic attack I could definitely sympathize with. And they feel like, okay, Israel is going through a hostile Takeover, our rights will not be protected [00:26:00] and this, this triggered all the anxieties they have anyway from Israel's Haredi future and ultra Orthodox future and right wing future and all those anxieties that existed anyway, we only had one reform, all those anxieties were unleashed and now we have a clash between the frustration of of the right, which I sympathize with, and the anxiety of, let's call it left, it's not only the left, and now that's what we have here in the streets of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and all over Israel, a clash of frustration with anxiety, a clash of past and future.

The right feels throughout, for the past 75 years, we were screwed by the left. The left feels, well you know what, in the next, during the next 75 years, we're going to be screwed by the right. This is what we have here, past vs. future, frustration clashes with anxiety. I think that's the MRI of Israel.

That's where we are. It's not just a Arguments about constitutional law. It's a clash of emotions, which is a tribe that's terrified that [00:27:00] Israel is becoming an Israel they don't, they won't want to live in in the future. And the, and the tribe that's, that, that feels like for the past 75 years, Israel wasn't the country we, we, we, we were, we should have lived in.

It should have been different. So you have past versus future, frustration versus anxiety. That's our best attempt to try to offer an MRI of what's, what's, I think what's really clashing in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. You have been an observer of, uh, Israeli politics and political movements as much as anyone I know.

Have you ever seen anything like these protests? These are incredibly impressive protests. I've never seen these kind of protests. And I think, I also think that these protests are unique also on the world scene. These protests have three very unique characteristics. One, they're extremely passionate.

Extremely passionate, and then they're not violent at all. Now that is a tremendous, unique asymmetry. [00:28:00] Think about it. Throughout the world, we see people protesting now in France. We can compare, right? Right. So, when protests, the more passionate Or the protests 2020 in the United States. So I think, I would say the basic law of protest looks like this.

It's so obvious it's even embarrassing to say. The more passionate a protest is, the more violent it is. And if it's not violent, it's probably not passionate. In Israel, we have this shocking asymmetry between passion and violence. Very passionate, not violent at all. That is an Israeli startup. We were with, uh, I was with Ambassador Nides when I was here, U.

S. Ambassador to Israel, and he pointed out, take a step back and recognize, regardless of where you stand on these protests, no arrests, nobody killed. Unbelievable. Now, by the way, um, when is this podcast going to be, going to be, uh? In a week from Monday. A week from today. Okay. I mean, I just want to be on record saying, [00:29:00] until now, we've enjoyed this miracle, until now, we've been enjoying this miracle, um, of this asymmetry between passion and violence, which is very unique.

And I think it shows something about, about the resilience. of Israelis. A second characteristic is that it's a very patriotic protest. Now, this is something. When people protest, they lose subtleties. They lose nuance. And the most important nuance we have a tendency to lose, and we see this throughout the world, it's like, it's a human weakness that we have, is that when you hate a government, you start hating the country itself.

We have this tendency, what I feel towards the government. becomes what I feel towards the country. Here we have protests of people passionately protesting against the government or against some of the policies of the government. And the holding the flag of Israel. It's the most powerful image, by the way.

It's the most powerful. [00:30:00] Not just, I mean, Sea of Flags. Sea of Flags. Sea of Flags, and they're singing Hatikvah. And they're, it's so patriotic. So the ability to hold that subtlety, to be passionately against the government, and the same amount of passion for the country, loving the country, that is another Israeli startup.

I looked at the protests in the United States after Trump was elected. nationwide protests or after his government was sworn in Or he was sworn in as president. You look at the Black Lives Matter protests in the U. S. after the George Floyd killing. Regardless of what you think of Donald Trump, what happened with the charges of police brutality, whatever.

But the protests turned into not just a critique of a particular politician or policies, it turned into an indictment of America, of America, the founding, the founding of America, what the founding represented and what has been institutionalized and become systemic in the history of America since its founding.

They were [00:31:00] literally like backing up the truck and loading. What else can we load in there in this as opposed to saying. We love this country, we have a real problem with this particular issue, and that's what we're protesting against. And that, I think, here, created a space for people to come in because it didn't feel alien to them.

Exactly. And also, when people get very passionate, rallied up, they lose nuance. That's what happened in America. Passionate protest with a tremendous nuance. We can't stand the policies of this government, but we love this country. And so, and that is also, and now, and that is. I would, I would say even more, you would, like, um, I see this with American Jews, many times American Jews that have a hard time with the Israeli government, they start not liking Israel as a country.

Right. We see that many times. And we also saw this in Israel's, we also saw this in certain parts of Israel's left, where their anti right wing [00:32:00] government started turning into an anti Zionist sentiment. And now what these rallies are doing. They're bringing people in from the left, some of them from the more extreme left, and now finally they found, they found their Zionism.

Can you imagine a camp that finds its Zionism while it's protesting against the government? It starts loving the country more than the past while it's hating the government and its policies, policies just like the past. That is another Israeli, Israeli startup. And finally, If you close your eyes and you imagine, okay, such a patriotic protest with flags of Israel, singing of Tikva, celebrating our founding document, Megilat Ha'atzmaut, Declaration of Independence.

Declaration of Independence, which itself is a tremendous document. Yeah. And all these patriotic symbols. Around the world when you see so much patriotic passion, it's almost always not liberal protests. And many times, when you see [00:33:00] throughout Europe passionate, patriotic protests, many times they're even anti liberal.

They're against immigration, against certain rights, and vice versa. When you see very liberal protests, they're not patriotic. And this is what we have here. One of the most patriotic protests in our history are for liberal values. are to protect human rights institutionally, not just because of the goodwill of the politicians.

So this is, I think, the, this is what we found. Israel, Israeli protesters managed to strike this yin yang, where we are simultaneously very national and very liberal, very patriotic and fighting for our individual rights. So that itself is another tremendous achievement. So those are three achievements of this protest.

The asymmetry between passion and violence, protesting against the government not against country, and the yin and yang of being very national and [00:34:00] very individualistic, very patriotic and very liberal. That yin and yang. And after saying all that, this triple miracle, I don't want to say it's a miracle, a miracle sounds like it's just a fluke, no I think this is a, these three characteristics offer us a tremendous window.

into Israeli psyche. Like these protests are a window into Israeli psyche and Israelis are, as we're talking, pulling off something pretty amazing. Um, I don't want to jinx this. It might not continue. There might be violence. It might become all this could change. This is Alice could change. I hope it's fluid.

It's very, very fluid. But as Blake, but, but, but, uh, When are we? April, 2023. Right. Okay. We managed to put together this triple miracle. And after saying that. There is, I think, a dark side to these protests. There's one dark side, which is a [00:35:00] stain on these protests, I think. And that is, while they're trying, and I sympathize with the cause, because I myself, I'm against these, for reform, against these reforms.

And how they're going about it. And how they're, and definitely how this government is doing it. As protesting against reforms, they started using the army, our military, as a political weapon. And this is how it goes. In the, the Israeli, I think majority of Israeli pilots are in reserves, are in Miluim.

Right? And in order to stay qualified, they have to come and, and uh, train at least once a week. And think how amazing that is! Dan, you're, you know these people, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You know these people who have busy jobs. They're venture capitalists and, you know, business and met doctors and And every Thursday, or whatever it is, whatever day their day is, they leave their job in the afternoon and they go fly F 16s.

That's right. For an [00:36:00] afternoon. And now, a lot of them And they do this into their 20s and 30s. And if they don't fly for a while, they're not qualified. So, um, and then they come out and some of them say, not all of them, If these reforms are not frozen, we're not showing up. Now that's a very serious problem.

Now, I don't want to now measure that ethically. I just want to think about what this means about the future of Israel. The fact that that threat was legitimized in Israel's public. It was legitimized because Israel's former chief of staff, Ehud Barak, uh, supported it. I think the other chief of staff, Don Charles, I think, I'm not sure, I think he also supported it.

So it's not like a very marginalized group, it was backed. A lot of former major, uh, uh, Amos Yadlin supported it. A bunch of these former senior military Yadlin supported this threat? Yeah. Wow. He supported the Air Force, yeah. The Air Force, but wow. Yeah. That's hard, that's, okay. So, and, and, [00:37:00] so it was legitimized.

Mm hmm. And, it was very effective. One of the main reasons why these reforms froze was because Galan said, if these reforms pass, I might not have We might not be able to protect ourselves. And what he meant was the pilots and other units saying, we're not going to show up. So think about while we're talking, there is an event happening in Israel, but there's also a memory being created.

And what's going to affect the future is not only the event, it's also how we remember these events. Here's how we might remember this. There was an attempt that a certain group of reserve soldiers made a threat and it stopped The, uh, the reform, so it legitimized the threats and the threats became very, it was effective.

Okay. So now 10 years from now, the government wants to evacuate seven settlements in the West Bank in order to create a, uh, in order to find, in order to, in order to deal with the Palestinian question, will it be able to do, well, here's what's going to [00:38:00] happen with not low probability. People on the right will say we're not showing up.

Right. And it's legitimate. So, so you could have, you know, national religious right wing service in the military saying we won't do it. Well, it could have happened in the, I mean, if you rewind and go back to future with the Gaza disengagement in 2005, and Israeli soldiers said. And in 2005, they didn't use the, they didn't do that.

And now they say, well, it's legitimate and it's effective. So if it's legitimate, I'll do it. And it's effective. I'll definitely do it. And then you'll find, cause that's the memory it's being created now. So, so, and, and which means no future government will be able to evacuate any settlement in the West bank.

And if you just take this further, which probably means Israeli future governments won't, cannot. Now, since almost by definition, great decisions will be controversial, maybe what's set in stone now, that Israel can't do great things anymore. [00:39:00] If great things are always controversial, and you'll have a tribe that's passionately against it, and it could use the military in order to stop it, so that probably means that Israel can't do great things anymore.

So that's my analysis of these protests. They're beautiful. They're amazing. They're unique. They're passionate and not violent. They're for country and against government. They're liberal and they're patriotic simultaneously. That's the power, that's the beauty, and there is a stain. The stain that I think that people who are using this threat I'm not sure they're thinking through the future results of this threat.

It might mean that Israel, Israeli governments will not be able to make great, they'll be able to raise taxes, to lower taxes. They'll be able to do small things. But will we be able to do Consensus, military operations, fine. Fine. But anything that's contra, anything that's big , which will probably be in con, an historic wol will probably mean controversial.

It'll be, it will, it [00:40:00] will be hard to do in the future. So that's my analysis of the beauty of these protests and the stain. Yeah, sort of like the promise and the peril. Yes. Where do you, again, crystal ball, I'll qualify this, uh, you know, a thousand times. We don't know it's April of 2023. Where do you think this is all going?

Do you think this protest movement. And, and the, and the conversation it stimulated lives beyond what is the probable death of the judicial reforms. At least the probable death of the judicial reforms as we, as, as, as they were introduced. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. I don't mean. So it's not going to, so it could end with a constant, with a compromise that now President Herzog is trying to put together.

My guess is there'll be compromise. Benny Gantz. Observe Benny Gantz. He's going to be the player that will enable this compromise. And we might find ourselves with a compromise that 70 percent of Israelis can live with. And a compromise meaning you, you have most or all of the, of the Bibi led bloc vote for it.

And then you have Gantz's party vote [00:41:00] for it. Yeah. And it might, and by the way. So suddenly you're talking about it passing with 70, 80 votes. Maybe. That's possible. As opposed to 64. That's possible. Maybe Lapid will join if it's a good compromise. That would be, that would be, I would say that would end. The turmoil within, but the demons, they were unleashed.

That's what I'm trying to get at, right. The demons, the energy, the frustration of the right is still alive. The anxiety of the left is still alive. The beauty of these protests, they're bringing, that are enabling so many Israelis. to feel like this is their country, they own it, they're fighting for it, that and the stain of these protests, the fact that we use the army one time and it was effective when we, when in order to block a political move, all this will stay with us for many, many years, the light and the beauty of these protests and the darkness, all this will be staying us for many, many years.

So that, that could, and the question is, can we channel this energy to build? Uh, uh, uh, a great Israel in the next 75 years. Channel this energy, that's, I think, [00:42:00] our big, that's the big question that we'll be facing after all this is over, but it could also have a very bad ending. I want to end on an upbeat note.

Okay, okay, so, yeah, yeah, so. No, no, no, no, I, to ask you this question. We're on the eve of celebrating Israel's 75th anniversary. Yes. Um, I was recently reading a couple of essays by Barbara Tuchman. Mm. Uh, from, um, the one she wrote, I think, in 1958 about a visit to Israel, another one, I think it was right after 1967, um, you read these essays, and she nails it.

I mean, she nails Israel, and even, she doesn't nail it in the moment, these are essays, these aren't, she wrote these, like, you know, she, she, she nails it looking back, you know, decades, uh, Decades later, you, you kind of, it resonates with you, what she's writing even now. Yeah. So Israel's about to be turned 75.

75 years from now, just big picture, looking back, what, what, what, like, are we going to look back saying, [00:43:00] you know, what happened here? Like, Okay, so here, here's what I think is happening. And again, this is a prediction and I'm probably wrong, okay? But I think a large memory is being created. And that is, we had an experiment of a government that is very extreme, that Likud, that we have the most extreme version of Judaism, ultra Orthodox, the most extreme version of Israeli politics, extreme right wingers like Itamar Ben Gvir, and Likud.

And for many years in the right, This government was a fantasy. One day, there'll be a pure right wing government with no centrists, no liberals, nothing there to block us, and then we'll see what happens. And it was a fantasy. Israelis call it Memshelet Yamin al Maleh, a government, a right wing government, which is No, because there was always, Bibi's government, there was always someone to the left there from the center to balance him.[00:44:00]

So he'd gone to the government, he had Tzipi Livni in the government, he had Gideon Tsar, right? And the best way to Now he's the most left wing member of the government. That's right, that's right. Now the best way to destroy a fantasy is to implement it. Now I think what's happened is this government has turned a fantasy into a bad memory.

In the future, this government, I mean, for years, this government was a fantasy of the right. Now, for years to come, I think it will be a traumatic memory for many people, including in the right. Now, what happens when you turn a fantasy into a Why for including on the right? Many people on the right feel very, very disgusted by this government.

I see. Okay. Not all people on the right, but many people on the right. And, and, and this government might be seen in the future as one of the worst governments Israel has ever had. So, that itself is very interesting because Israel had very, um, pure left wing governments in the past. And the left implementing its pure ideology, this is a very strong Israeli narrative, has [00:45:00] led us to the second intifada.

The second intifada brought destruction to the political left. I think what we might see now. Is a bad memory being created, though being destruction to the fantasy of a pure right wing government. But Israel is not going back to left wing ideologies. What the second Intifada did to the left, I think these moments might be doing to the extreme right.

Which might mean that Israelis that are now past not one trauma, but two bad memories. We have one bad memory of what happens when the left turned and took its pure ideology. A two state solution. Blind to reality, and trying to implement it purely, what we had was the Second Tifada. Now we have right wingers behaving like left wingers, taking ideas, trying to implement them, not listening to economists, not listening to some military leaders, not listening to all the signs, trying to [00:46:00] implement it, not seeing reality, and now reality rebelling against your own plan.

What we might see, this is for the right what the Second Tifada was for the left. And, if we're lucky, this will lead us to strong, centrist governments in the future. Alright, we will leave it there. Mika, thank you, uh, as always, for taking the time and getting my head popping with like a thousand other questions I want to ask you, but I won't ask you now, which means I'm going to have to have you back on.

Uh. Happy Independence Day. Thank you. Thank you.

That's our show for today. To read any of the English language versions of Mika's book, you can track them down on your favorite bookstore, or at Barnes and Noble. That's barnesandnoble. com. Or at that e commerce site, which I think they are calling Amazon. Call Me Back is produced by Ilan Benatar. Until next time, I'm your host, [00:47:00] Dan Senor.