John Fetterman's Israel
An entire nation mourned yesterday as Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas were laid to rest, following a procession through streets of Israel that were lined with thousands of Israelis. As Yarden Bibas delivered eulogies for his wife and children who were murdered by terrorists in Gaza, we were all reminded of the millions of people around the world who celebrated or justified the attacks that shattered their lives and so many others. While much of that moral confusion has emanated from the Left of the political spectrum, the courage and moral conviction of one leader on the Left has stood out.
Over the past 16 months, Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman has been one of the staunchest supporters of Israel’s war against Hamas. Fetterman, a Democrat who is not Jewish, has been more outspoken in his support for Israel than most of his Jewish colleagues. As a result, Fetterman has gone from being a hero of the Left to becoming a lightning rod for many progressives. And yet, he has not backed down from the fight he perceives as a decisive turning point for his party, and a test for whether or not it will continue to stand for true liberal values.
John Fetterman, Senator and former Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania, joined us to discuss his controversial stance on an issue that has divided the Democratic party, and what the future holds for his party.
Full Transcript
DISCLAIMER: THIS TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN CREATED USING AI TECHNOLOGY AND MAY NOT REFLECT 100% ACCURACY.
JF: I got my graduate degree at Harvard. And then immediately, like the shocking, it was like the day after, you know, the place, just like you had about 30 different groups and they had this, this letter, and essentially it's like, well, Israel deserved this and I’m thinking like, wow, that's crazy, that kind of response. Some people in my party were calling for a ceasefire and all that stuff. I'm like, after what? After what? That's outrageous. I'm like, no, of course not. For me, I, I committed to like, I'm willing to be like the last man standing in my party that's, that's ever gonna be with no conditions until the end, until Hamas is effectively neutralized.
DS: It is 2:30 PM on Monday, February 24th, here in Washington DC. It is 9:30 PM on Monday, February 24th in Israel. For much of his political career, Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman was a darling or champion of the left. Senator Fetterman in his traditional sweatsuit, hoodie, and shorts became an instant icon of the Democratic Party and a stalwart of its resistance in some respects to President Trump's first term. All of that seems to have changed, or a lot of it, on the day that changed much of our lives and the world in which we once lived, October 7th, 2023. Senator Fetterman has been one of the staunchest supporters of Israel in its defensive war against Hamas. In fact, he keeps posters of the Israeli hostages in his office since the earliest days of the war. Senator Fetterman who's not Jewish, has been more supportive of Israel over the past 16 months than many of his Jewish colleagues on Capitol Hill. He has and continues to pay a price for his position on Israel, but he has not backed down. In fact, he has doubled down on his support for Israel, often criticizing his own party for using the kind of rhetoric and taking the kinds of political stances that he has called, and I quote here, toxic to voters. And so we were very excited to find out that Senator Fetterman was open to coming on Call me Back to discuss all of this. With us today from a studio in Washington, DC is Senator Fetterman, the former mayor of Braddock, Pennsylvania, just outside Pittsburgh from 2006 to 2019. Senator Fetterman served as Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania from 2019 to 2023. During that time while running for the US Senate in 2022, he overcame a stroke and at the same time flipped a Republican held Senate seat for the Democrats. Senator Fetterman, welcome to the Call Me Back podcast. Thanks for doing this.
JF: Hey, thank you for having me here.
DS: We have a global audience. And I've gotten to know you and I think many of our listeners have, uh, have gotten to know you or followed you, but we also have an audience, as I said, around the world who don't know much about you other than what they've learned about you since October 7th. So we're gonna get to October 7th, but I wanna start at the beginning, so to speak. Can you talk a little bit about where you grew up and the kind of environment you grew up in? And try just to get a sense of what shaped you.
JF: Yeah. Well, because of like that, that kind of an audience, I would describe it as like, I'm a Pennsylvania guy and I was technically born in Redding, Pennsylvania, which is like an industrial city in the eastern part of Pennsylvania. And now probably that, that's fairly notable now because, uh, uh, Taylor Swift and I were born in the same hospital. So, and, and all of my family was from Berks County, which that's part of a very conservative part of, uh, Pennsylvania always has been and still is. Uh, and then I moved to York County, uh, which is kind of south central Pennsylvania, another kind of a conservative part. And my family was all Republicans. To my knowledge, I think I'm essentially the only, uh, Democrat, you know, in my family. So I grew up and that was pretty regular to be around people and have some kinds of political views and, uh, I never saw them as like the enemy or abhorrent or those kinds of things. People all just got along and we never had those big, you know, arguments on like Thanksgiving kind of things, all that. So for me I try to explain to people, especially during, in, in elections, the three cycles that I've been in, uh, in Pennsylvania, how the intensity and the appeal that Trump has trying to explain and how that has landed with Republicans. For some people that live and grew up in like deep blue kinds of things might think that's weird, I can't explain that, or I'm not really sure if that's true. And I'm like, it absolutely is. And if anything, you're probably wrong. If you think, if you're underestimating that kinds of intensity. You know, I came up in that same cycle as Trump did. My first statewide race was in 2015-16, and I ran for the Senate. And of course I didn't win, but I-
DS: So you ran in the Democratic primary? Lost in the primary. Yeah.
JF: I did. But the person that I was running against largely, I, I always felt and believed that she was never gonna be able to carry Pennsylvania. And it turns out she didn't. But I tried to warn and I became a surrogate for the Clinton campaign in Western Pennsylvania. And I tried to warn 'em like, hey, Trump has connected in a way, and everybody assumed that it was gonna be easy peasy. And then after that, uh, that infamous, uh, grabbing the-
DS: Right. The “blank.”
JF: You know, and all that, that, well, that's supposed to be the end of him for sure. Uh, and I'm like, and I was, I was actually in, I was in the audience for that first debate and very clearly by any kind of metrics, uh, Clinton won. But that really didn't matter because he had that kind of a connection and, and that kind of intensity. And that's why he carried Pennsylvania. And I've been warning for those three cycles. So like growing up through a lot of that and witnessing and seeing it day in and day out, um, trying to, kind of like a translation to a lot of blue, you know, audiences, you know, why that happened.
DS: When you were growing up, who were the public figures you admired? Who you looked up to, who you, as you would later choose a career in public service thought to model yourself after?
JF: Well, I mean, for, for me personally, it's always been about my father too.
DS: Who's a Republican?
JF: Oh yeah. Yeah. The lifelong, lifelong, you know, the running joke during the campaign. I'd say I'm gonna be the first, uh, democrat that, that my parents ever gonna vote for. And I'm like, I hope, I hope at least. You know, kind of thing. So for, for, for him and, and my life started, um, I was, uh, an unplanned and, and in some sense, kind of a, an unwanted kind of pregnancy. And they were just teenagers, teenagers, 19. Uh, and then my, uh, parents decided to, to get married. And, you know, after 55 years, they're still, actually, they just had their 56th. Uh, they're still together. So, uh, he worked, uh, at a grocery store. Uh, and helped get his, uh, college degree. And we started out in a very, very, kind of like a, a lower rung, and that's how things evolved.
DS: At what point did you start to think about, uh, career commitment to public service, to politics, to elected office?
JF: I, I got lucky. My life could have turned into a different direction, but that really kind of changed. Uh, uh, I was finishing up, coming up on that, that would've been, uh, 32 years ago, uh, business school. And my, my best friend at the time was killed in a car accident on his way into my house. And that really kind of rocked my world there. And for the first time I had that kind of death where I'm like this idea that you could be living your last 15 minutes of your life and had no idea that was coming. Uh, and then that really, I, I just, it just, I, I just started to reflect in what I want. So I, I joined Big Brothers Big Sisters. And I was paired with a, a young boy who was a, uh, an AIDS orphan, well, his, his father had died from AIDS and his mother was in full blown aids. And that's when I met her. Uh, and that was in 1994. So that was a death sentence. And I'm embarrassed in retrospect to even almost wondering, you know, when I first met her, I mean, she was skel, skeletal, and if you ever remember those Benetton ads, those kind of shocking ones. That's exactly what that was. And then I realized, I'm like, my God, how can two people have such divergent kinds of, you know, I was born into a situation and I ended up, and I was able to get education and I, I had that kind of security and he, before his ninth birthday, both of his parents died from AIDS and, and that really, uh, after those kinds of back to back and I decided I wanted to go into my life, uh, maybe, hey, if I could make things a little better, a little different. And rather than just pursuing like more of a traditional path.
DS: Was it ever a question for you when you were growing up or when you were choosing a career in, in public service, what political party you would join?
JF: Uh, it actually really wasn't a thing, and I never fully expected I'd end up in politics. Uh, honestly, uh, in fact, uh, I, at first, I became more of what I would describe as almost like a social worker. And then I started a small program, uh, helping young people get their GED and getting their first job. Even something simple like a driving license, people can't really realize, uh, some of those very kind of barriers. For some people they were, grew up in opportunities that they lacked, that I had. Uh, and then in, wow, that's crazy, 20 years ago, literally that I decided, I'm like, hey, maybe if I could run for mayor. And that was kind of like, kind of strange that a young white guy in an overwhelmingly black, uh, community was running for mayor, but I was able to kind of win by one vote. Just one vote. And that was the start of my political career just because of that one vote. So it might be a cliche to say that it, but it's a, it's true that, you know, every vote does matter because without one fewer vote, and I wouldn't be in this room right now today, having this conversation.
DS: In Braddock, Pennsylvania, what is it like a population of 1700 people?
JF: Yeah. Well, originally it was like a powerhouse for, for, you know, like a lot of people might be of following the US Steel drama. Well, that's where Carnegie started his little empire. And in my home, it's in a former abandoned, uh, car dealership is directly across the street from the, the et ti the, the ti uh, the plant. That's where it started. And I'd like to remind people that was part of the, at the time of the original Silicon Valley and, you know, wealth and power and the kind of industrial might that remade our entire society here. And then after all of that, that massive kinds of dis-industrialization and, and suburbanizing and a lot of white flight, that whole issues, and it tore it apart and it lost 90% of its population. It went from an over 20,000 town. It had the kind of urban density, uh, similar to Brooklyn, and now it was loft with about 2,500 people when I ran for mayor. So it's was a small mayor one, and that was never a traditional path to, you know, higher office. And I never expect that it was for me, it was just I was a, a social worker, just helping people get their GED and those things.
DS: So I wanna fast forward to you are running for Lieutenant Governor in 2018. You're the Democratic nominee. It's your second run for statewide office, but now you've won the nomination, you've won the Democratic primary. And I'll remind our listeners and viewers, it was the same year that the mass killing at the Tree of Life Synagogue in the Pittsburgh area in Squirrel Hill, uh, took place the largest, uh, violent anti-Semitic attack, I think in, in American history.
JF: It was shocking.
DS: 11 people killed.
JF: Oh, well, let me describe the circumstances. I was at towards the end of the campaign, um, and I was running with, uh, uh, Tom Wolf who-
DS: Who's the governor.
JF: Yeah.
DS: Who is the Democratic governor.
JF: Yeah. The governor and friends called me and they live close you know, really across the street of, of the Tree of Life, and they're like, hey, there's like a mass shooting and two people, someone is, are shooting and gunning down, uh, people in the synagogue. And the first thing I did was I called Jeff Bartos.
DS: Okay. So let's spend a minute on, so Jeff Bartos, who's a friend of mine, who was the Republican nominee for Governor.
JF: Exactly.
DS: I mean, so you're running, you're running head to head against Jeff Bartos in a competitive race.
JF: Correct, yeah.
DS: And the Tree of Life shooting happens and he's one of, if not the first person you call, he, in addition to being the Republican nominee, he's a proud member of the Jewish community.
JF: Yeah. And, and I said, Jeff, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry and maybe you're not aware, but it seems that there is a mass shooting situation and they're targeting Jews and they are mowing people down in, in a prominent synagogue in Squirrel Hill. And Squirrel Hill is the center of the Jewish community in Pittsburgh. I mean, it's incredibly vibrant. And I'm like, look, I'm not campaigning and I'm suspending my campaign. I'm not doing anything. I'm just getting back. And I did. And then it's, it's almost four and a half hour drive. And then I attended that, uh, a candlelight vigil there in the middle of Squirrel Hill, and this idea that somebody could show up with a rifle and start mowing people down, elderly people in the house of their worship. So that was really stark. And then that was kind of like the start of a, a real friendship with Jeff Bartos. And even though technically we're running against each other and we're in a different party, but I said to him like, Jeff, I'm so sorry that there's, uh, for your community. I mean, I'm not, I'm not a member of that community, so I can't imagine what that really feels like. But for me that just was, it rocked my world. And that's kind of how it was start of that.
DS: Was that the first time that the Jewish community, the threats against the Jewish community first, you know, kind of became obvious to you or, or got on your radar where you're like-
JF: You know, well, I mean, I mean, of course I, I, I never, I never spoke about antisemitism and those things because I'm like, that would be, if anything, that would be disrespectful. And I can't speak to that experience because I haven't lived that. But I mean, I was aware of it and I've seen what might happen, but it just was brought front and center and then the whole thing got blown apart um, after, uh, 10/7. Uh, and then when I was running for the second time, I ran for the Senate, um, I did
DS: In 2022.
JF: Yeah. Well, well, technically this would've been in ‘21. And I did an interview, um, and I said, look, now I, I really have the kind of traditional kinds of democratic opinions on the situation with Israel and Gaza and things. But I said, but I still say, you know, when the shit hits the fan, I'm gonna go in on an Israel. Through that I'm very clear.
DS: Okay. So I want to get to October 7th in a moment. Before I do, I do wanna talk about your run for the Senate in 2022, because I think most people following your race, most political journalists would've categorized, categorized you as like a, a liberal progressive type. I mean, I'm just, whether you go by those terms or not, that's, that's how you were characterized. So that was notable. Just your, your senate run and how you ran. And it was also quite noteworthy because you suffered a stroke during-
JF: Uh, yeah, I did. Yeah.
DS: During your Senate run. So, can you talk a little bit about that, and maybe, you have this device here, I think it's important for our listeners and viewers to know not only did you suffer the stroke, but you, you, you still use this device that helps you. So just can you talk about what you went through in 2022 and how you cope now as a senator?
JF: Yeah, sure. Let me unpack some of that. You know, I really ran in that, in that second cycle I'm like, really, I haven't stopped, been a, a progressive a a lot of the, kind of the extreme things that, that emerged over it changed. And I'm like, hey, I really kind of view myself as more of like a traditional kind of Democrat. And now coming up, that would be three years ago, uh, in May that I, I had a stroke and that was this, for the second time in my life where I was confronted with this idea, I had no time when I woke up that morning that I might, that I have 15 minutes left that I might live, and then when it hit, I wasn't even aware at that time. My wife pointed out, hey, you, uh, you're having a stroke? And I denied. I'm like, no, I'm fine. 'cause I was, uh, I wanted to head to a campaign event in Lancaster and they're like, no, no, you, they rushed me to the hospital, but I tried to maintain 'em, like, I'm fine. I gotta get there. And at that, that stroke nearly, uh, took my life. Uh, and I'm so grateful at that time because I've made a really, uh, an incredible kind of recovery. And the one lingering issue from that was, you know, sometimes processing language, when I'm doing very kind of precise conversations like this, I use that this is just captioning. And I wouldn't really, respectfully, I wouldn't, uh, turn it, uh, describe it as a device, but this is just kind of like a, like an Android.
DS: Yeah, it's an iPad. It's literally an iPad for those who are listening.
JF: A hundred, a hundred bucks thing.
DS: Right.
JF: And it has the thing of captioning.
DS: It's just transcribing for you what we're talking about, and so you can read it while you're listening.
JF: Exactly. So, um, so usually conversationally and things like, I can process and hear things, so I, I can't, I wouldn't describe myself as deaf, but in some way it's, it's, it's some lingering issues of processing language and very more kinds of precise situations like this. I use captioning to make sure I'm able to respond in a way no different than I'm doing right now.
DS: And then you're in the Senate and then the Senate physician, I think, diagnosed you as an after effect of the stroke with depression?
JF: Uh, well, yeah, just, uh, that was the, the biggest race in that cycle and unlimited money and just, you know, just unloaded in a way, like I would describe that as like a, like as the blow torch. Just torn apart, torn apart. And then I did the really dumb mistake of after I, after I won, I did like a post mortem. I looked online some of this stuff. And it wasn't like the thing said, it was just the volume and just where's this mass kind of venom and like for a stranger, I've never done anything wrong. That was part of it. And at that point, and that's depression. And I realized, and I knew that I, I need, I need help. And that's why I've been, uh, having that, that public conversation about depression, I reached a point where I have to be really more honest about self-harm. Beause I thought, well, of course, you know, depression's probably not gonna be a big political winner. But then if I'm really have to be honest, it's like having that as well too, because there is a lot of people that might be in that way. And, uh, over the, over the course of the election, I lost two of my friends, uh, to, uh, after depression and one had a stroke too, and another one had a, a heart attack. And they both had young children. And, and it was overwhelming to me. And it's not because they failed or I was stronger and I didn't succumb, but I, I just was able to find or got the appropriate help, whatever. And I think I've, at that point, I was really the first, uh, elected official to ever describe self harm. And then Joe Biden actually mentioned that in, in a conversation that he had a point in his life too. He considered that. So it's important to have that conversation because I want people, anyone that listens, hey, whatever, whatever your journey will be. But I promise you, you have to promise, just, I keep it simple because I'm not a professional in that way, but I'm saying just stay in that game. Stay in the game because you, you will get better because, two years later that's absolutely the truth. So that's been part of the journey and it's not something I would've chosen, but, but since that happened, uh, I've been paying it forward that I survived and I was able to recover. And I just beg people like, look, if you allow those kinds of conversations to continue with yourself with depression and that's becomes very dangerous and then might end in a way that you can't come back from.
DS: Let's now fast forward to October 7th, and I often ask many of our first time guests a question I'll ask you, which is, do you remember where you were as you were learning about the catastrophe of October 7th?
JF: I was, yeah. I started getting these calls and hearing all like this violence and, and the depravity and the things that were emerging from, and I mean, anyone's that's seen that video and that they-
DS: You mean the 47 minute video? Have you seen it?
JF: Oh yeah. Oh no, of course. And, you know, other things that were at the time might have been considered classified at the time, but, but my point and the fact that they filmed this and some of the transcript, transcriptions where, you know, some of those intercepted kinds of conversations and they're, they're cheering it and like they're calling up like their family. Like, hey look, we just killed three Jews or whatever, and, and what they've done and just the kinds of ust the barbarism and the cruelty and, and that was not just, you know, like that wasn’t terrorism. That was really, for me, I described that as a war on civilization. And, and that really kind of just shifted immediately for, you know, for, for me and like, that's like, hey, I'm gonna be a committed voice for Israel and the Jewish community. Uh, because after that, things aren't ever gonna be the same and for the largest kinds of an attack and how personal and vicious and, uh, that was since the Holocaust. For me, my, it's like, what if that was, what if they did that to my family? You know, like if, if you had people barging into my home and raped my daughter and my wife and shot them in their heads or tortured it, or they made my children watch these kinds, like the, the kinds of like, where, where does that come from? Where does that kind of evil and depravity come from? And it's like, what if that was me? And I'm like, I would never, I would never negotiate with that kind of evil and I would never want that for anyone else. And now at that point you will never, you can never allow that kind of a force and that kind of evil survive. And absolutely I, I made that statement like, whatever they need, military, financial, or intelligence wise, like, I'm always gonna support that and vote for those things.
DS: Okay. But that position that you just articulated just now, meaning you, you, your reaction was unconditional support for Israel.
JF: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah unconditional.
DS: Yeah. But that position was not shared by some, not all, but some in your Democratic party. And there was this progressive group, the squad, whatever you wanna call them. Who in the-
DS: Some people almost immediately, you know, within the first couple weeks. Well, I, and also, let me just speak to that. I mean, I got my graduate degree at Harvard. And then immediately like the shocking, it was like the day after, you know, the place, just like you had about 30 different groups and they had this, this letter and essentially it's like, well, Israel deserved this and that thing. Like, wow, that's crazy. That kind of response. I'm like, oh my God. And some people in my party were calling for a ceasefire and all that stuff. I'm like, after what? After what? That's outrageous. I'm like, no, of course not. Of course not. And then for me, I, I committed to like, I'm willing to be like the, the last man standing in my party that's, that's ever gonna be with no conditions until the end, until Hamas is effectively neutralized. It was pretty kind of clear that the Democratic Party felt like they had to, to criticize or react in that. And, and for me, I guess some people decided like, let's go after, you know, Netanyahu or the leader. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm never gonna sign on for that. This is the democratic leader of our ally. And now if you're going to, uh, uh, criticize or go after any side, it should be against Hamas and. Whether you might think someone is, is a bad person or a terrible leader, whatever that is. Well, he is the leader that Israel decided on, and that's our ally. And when you consider what the alternative is in the war, and I’m like there's absolutely I'm ever going to go attack, um, uh, the, that democratic leader of our ally in the middle of an existential war.
DS: You were very outspoken. There was a vote. I can't remember the exact date, but there was a vote on funding with continued funding for various parts of Israel's defenses. There's funding for Iron Dome.
JF: Yeah, well, Iron Dome, like we actually, members of my party voting against Iron Dome and those and those things like that whole BDS and the Iron Dome and all those kinds of vote. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? These are defensive and going after that it's like, and that was like that emerging paradox where the people of the most progressive elements of my party, the only nation in that region that are, uh, projecting and, and those are the kinds of values that's Israel. And it's, it's like such a paradox. That's the kind of places that have the values that you espouse and you live in, in our nation.
DS: Were you ever pressured by leaders of the Democratic Party to just quiet down? You were very outspoken early on. I remember seeing you at the big, big demonstration on, you know, on the mall, uh, you know, a month or so after October 7th, where you were standing there with the Israeli flag wrapped around you. It was quite moving, I must say, hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Jews. And there you are standing there with the Israeli flag, very outspoken, very critical of critics of Israel, including critical of Democratic critics of Israel. Did anyone ever tell you, hey Senator, pipe down.
JF: I mean, not expressly sitting down and say, but I've had protestors start showing up immediately at my office and then inevitably at my home, and I, I've said, look, I'm sorry. I realize I'm gonna be an outlier and I refuse to pander to that. Um, you know, I understand there's an election happening and they try to, they try to run between the raindrops and try to like, have it both ways. I'm like, I'm never gonna pander to that the, that Dearborn kind of uh, audience. And if you are willing to vote and for the other side, well, you're probably not gonna enjoy that outcome. Uh, and then turns out that happened. Uh, so for me, it's not about the election, it's about what's the right side. And I'm going to, I'm gonna follow Israel through that. I have disagreed publicly even, even, uh, the president at that time, I, I even, I never supported this idea of, uh, holding back on the, the largest munitions of that, the 2,000 pound bombs and those things. It's like whatever they need to eradicate Hamas. And people forget or they tried to ignore that this is, and the misery and the civilian death was designed by Hamas. They've embedded themselves and they hide in the schools or the hospitals. And I will never forget. And this was shortly after, uh, at that, that hospital, and they claimed that in a rocket hit and they all announced that 500 people were killed and that was an Israeli rocket. And Israel intercepted the radio where it was one of their own rockets. And I'm like, there's no way that was gonna kill 500 people. That's impossible.
DS: Meaning it was the, uh, Palestinian Islamic jihads rockets that-
JF: Yeah, exactly that. That's the point. And it's like, and it's like people started attacking Israel and they said, that is not us. That was them. You know, it's the a thousand people, you know, metaphorically reacted. But only one just was like, by the way, that wasn't true. And that was part of the recurring things that there was gonna be a, you know, a famine. And they have cheapened words in our, in our language. One of them is genocide. Genocide, describing that Israel was, was, uh, was, uh, engaging in genocide. I'm like, that is factually, it's just, it's not true. But if you really are engaging in a genocide, why are you telling people you gotta evacuate? Here's where I'm gonna strike. How many, how many societies that are engaging in a genocide are facilitatin vaccination programs for their children? Israel was forced to conduct a war through these civilians and also had to make sure that they, they got the kinds of food and other kinds of support through this, through constant criticism for what they've done and thing that happened. Uh, you know, just whatever you describe that as, as blood liable, whatever, just the kinds of lies that just got repeated in the media, and it's just not true. And I've said this publicly, you are working against peace and teaching Hamas knowing that, hey, this kind of messaging on social media has, and they use those kinds of words like, uh, colonizing or this, you know, well, there must be an oppressor and there must be the oppressed. And created those really kinds of false constructs.
DS: You're saying all these things, and you were saying these things as events were unfolding, there were leaders of your own party that were pressuring you. You even had members of your own Senate staff who according to public reports, resigned over the position you had taken. At any point, I'm just trying to get a sense, did the, 'cause at some point, does it, does it, you're, you know, does it start to hurt? Like these are people who are working for you, these are people who signed up to work for you, and they felt so strongly that you were like way out there on this issue. I, by the way, I don't, most Americans probably don't think you're way out there. They think your position is very reasonable, but I'm just saying, did at some point any of this give you pause?
JF: Well, I, for me it came from a very simple, you know, uh, commitment. It's like Israel and the Jewish community deserves at least one consistent, uh, voice through this, at least from the Democratic party. But people forget that the Jewish community, it was, was largely a democratic, you know, part of our base. And now how can you have that party turn our, turn, turn their back. But especially from the moral clarity for, for me, I, when people ask me that question, I'm like, for me it was always easy because it's always been that moral clarity. Like can you just imagine if, if Israel was pushed into a ceasefire in last May or June and think, can you imagine if people like Sinwar and Hamas would still be largely functional. And Hezbollah was described, all the so-called experts described that as like they were kind of like, uh, the ultimate badass, think of the things that they did. And it was magnificent that Israel finally called bullshit on those play, on those kinds of organizations. Um, and then after those beeper, after the beepers, and I'm like, I, I, I respond by saying, oh, I'm like, oh, I love it. You know, people would you say, are you sure really? Like, you know, whatever. I'm like, oh yeah, I love it a a hundred percent. Because for me, that's the ultimate microtargeting. You know, like if you wanna criticize Israel, having to use those kinds of large munitions, you know the only people that have beepers, well they're terrorists, and the ones that, it's like if you have a beeper and that goes boom and you get taken out, that is in my description, uh, that's the most effective way to get in in their head. And also to neutralize some of their, their people in ways that minimizes all the collateral damage as well too. And now Hezbollah was, was exposed as really kinda largely a paper tiger and I fully support, I also loved for them systematically eliminating the leadership.
DS: Can you talk in January of ‘24, I, you had pressure all this time from October to through now. You get pressure from the Democratic party. You have staff members that resign because of your positions on this issue. And in January of ‘24, you had this protest. They showed up at your home.
JF: Oh, yeah.
DS: Right in Braddock. And can you describe that scene and how you responded?
JF: Yeah. Well, we, you know, we, they could see it online and there was probably maybe 50 to 75 people and they were yelling and screaming, you know, genocide, genocide, genocide. Uh, I, our, our 10-year-old was home at the time and, uh, I live in a building where I was able to get up on the roof and I was kind of listening to it. And I was waiting until they, it really got it ugly and whatever, and then I, I just held up the Israeli flag and, and to me, I don't know why that's controversial, to just be like, hey, it's just, it's just the Israeli flag, but that, you know, some people might have saw that as provocative or aggression. It's like, no, that's just saying you've made your statement, you have these kinds of things, you know, that's my statement. I'm like, hey, you know, I'm, I'm here for standing with Israel. I don't know why I don't show up at your house, you know, with flags and start yelling and accusing you of things, but you have done that. You've made your statement, I've, I'm making mine. And that's part of that ongoing dialogue where I'm like, look, you know, the, the, the death of innocent Palestinians and children. Uh, I mean, that's absolutely a tragedy, but I think perhaps the difference between you and I are is, is that you might blame those things on Israel, but for me, I blame Hamas and I blame Iran. And that's kind of like a fundamental difference where, you know, like, why can you deny the responsibility with the people that are, are doing these terrible things and the kind of nations that are financing all of it.
DS: Do you ever try to just explain to, I mean, I don't know how much you can actually have a dialogue with these protesters, but colleagues of yours, friends on the left-
JF: it's hard to, it's hard to, because it, it's immediately like it's yelling and, you know, and they show up and then there's always like the phone, like they start filming it and they tried everything to get on, like these silly videos to go viral just for, for video online.
DS: But, many of these activists claim to support women's rights, gay rights, freedom of religion. If you, if you actually wanna be on the side of these liberal values, you should be for Israel.
JF: I, I agree. Like you, we've all seen those signs where it's like queers for Palestine. Like can you just imagine? Yeah, I agree. It's almost like something out of like a Portlandia, you know, if that show kind of a thing, and it's like if you were a member of that community and you show up in Gaza or in some of those nations, they're gonna give you a choice. It's like you can pick the building that we're gonna throw you on the top of. And then after I visited Israel, you could witness it that people that were gay, they could walk around and they could, they could be free and just hold hands and they can be affectionate with members of the same sex. It's like that's where the values that you claim to, to really to live by. And it's like, that's where it's actually in Israel. Uh, and that's what's part of why I think Israel is miraculous in the middle of all of it. You know, they, they produce the kind of a society that has the values that people, especially of the Democratic party would, you know, we believe we would define that as the most kind of important things.
DS: Many have looked at you since the election of 2024, as potentially a model for how Democrats could reemerge and, uh, appeal to the center of the political spectrum.
JF: There's some things that I think transcend party and for, for me, a situation like what happened after 10/7. Anyone that has studied history, if you happen again and again and again. Nations and organizations attack Israel, they lose and then they lose more freedom. They lose lower quality of their lives and more land. And it's like, just when can you decide and understand, stop attacking Israel and build your own nation rather than trying to destroy theirs. And now I've done inter, I've done events in that election you referenced with Bill Clinton. Now remember what was, what, what they were offered.
DS: Meaning what they were offered in 2000 when President Clinton was president and the, the Israeli government and the leader of the Palestinians Yasser Arafat went to Camp David and they were offered a Palestinian state.
JF: 96%! 96%, and you can pick which 4% you get a capital of East Jerusalem and all this, and they're like, no. No, no, no. And now it's like, you know, you have a pension if you end up in prison or killed while you were, we, we were arrested or killed, you know, killing, uh, Jews and creating that kind of terror, uh, and trying to pretend that these, this is not the same. It's, this is not the same.
DS: You know, there are many people who, as I said, they, they look at you as a, potentially a, a model of how the Democrats could reemerge. And at the same time, the issues we're talking about today, right now are treated as, quote unquote a, a issue of concern to the Jewish community. And I think something you've pointed out to me in a previous conversation we've had where you said you'll take your position on Israel and you'll let your opponents and critics take their position on Israel. And you said, and let's, let's both go with debate It in the center of Scranton, Pennsylvania, which is, let's just say, not a big Jewish community, you'll go in the heart of Scranton, Pennsylvania. We'll stand in the middle and we'll debate and we'll see where regular voters from Scranton, Pennsylvania stand. Meaning, I think what you're saying is this is not just a Jewish community issue. This is a proxy for something much bigger.
JF: Uh, I agree. It's, it's, it is, it's just kind of like whose side are you on people that rape and torture, young girls and women who, that tie families together and they set 'em on fire and they filmed that terrible things. They are proud of those things and the history. When they don't want peace. If you look at their whole charter, the front and center, it's like we have to destroy Israel. The rampant antisemitism that flood the, the campuses too, saying things like, you know, from the river to the sea thing, everyone understands what that means. That's Hamas's jingle. And you know, and they say, well no, that's about universal human rights or whatever. It's like, oh, that's bullshit. You and I know what that means. And it's like at least have the character to stand by those kinds of eradicating Israel. And that's kind of like the rot that I described in my party and definitely in some of the elite kinds of institutions, not similar, similar, just like the one I graduated from and I did not recognize the campus that I graduated at that time, uh, a quarter of a century ago, and I had republican members of the faculty, even people like Mickey Edwards and, and, uh, Alan Simpson and, and, uh, David Gergen and all of them. And that wasn't controversial in that. But now I can't even imagine. One of the co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, you know, we gotta run that guy that out of a town with a rail and those things, and. I can't imagine what kind of real dialogues happening. Uh, if you turn it into like a bubble, you know, the, that whole what are the, the monoculture and that really kind of fomented all of this intensely, uh, anti-Israel.
DS: I want to talk about a couple of issues just before we wrap up that are, that have been in the news that you have been an outspoken on or an outlier on. One of them is the effort in the Senate to sanction the International Criminal court.
JF: I was the only, it turned out I was the only Democrat to vote.
DS: You were the only Democrat to vote with the Republicans on that bill. Why did you think taking that position was so important because I'm sure you took a lot of heat for it.
JF: Because I, I've always, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna follow Israel. It, it's like, uh, Israel fully understands the stakes and that's about their own survival. Like when you have an organization that has equivocated, you know, the leaders of Hamas and the democratic leader in a, in a just war, that's repugnant. And now even IDF soldiers have to be concerned are they're gonna get arrested in some of these member of nations, it's absolutely, I reject that in the strongest way. And for me, we had the opportunity when we were in the majority to do it right, and they, they were unwilling to do that. I hope that it wasn't just the kind of pander or afraid of like an from an election. So now we have the opportunity and I'm gonna sign, uh, I'm gonna vote for that. I'm gonna sign on. And then I did that. And it was disappointing being to be the only member in my party for me that's right or wrong. And there isn't a lot of nuance when you are torturing and murdering innocent civilians. And, uh, the way and the kind of conditions, uh, let's not ever forget that has happened and why we've arrived at this place right now.
DS: So there, there was a resolution addressing the, the two state solution. You were, you were one of two Democrats to vote opposite the rest of your party on it. Then you've been supportive of some of the things President Trump has been saying about Gaza and what to do with Gaza going forward. So what's that about?
JF: I mean, yeah. No, no, I, I, I said that it's like, for, for me, that was, that wasn't necessareily, that wasn't serious. That was just kind of like, if, for lack of a better term, that's almost kind of like a, like a shocker, a bluff to the system. Basically it's daring them. It's like either, you know, like either you and these region, these nations take responsibility. It's like you do your job and you like, you better figure out a better option because nobody, nobody actually wants to own this. We just want them to just figure out on building their own nation. And not stop attacking Israel and we can all move on after that. So, and I think you've noticed after that kind of a shock, people, now all of these nations are meeting together and saying, well, hey, where's the better idea? Like, hey, I'm all about that. So like, I would never, ever support having American soldiers or that kind of thing. I don't think anyone honestly wants to own Gaza. That's absurd. What actually is truly absurd is, is that these so-called experts have been absolutely wrong about the whole region throughout all these years and all this generation and after what Israel pushed through, uh, after, after the, all of the constant ceasefire, ceasefire and all that pressure, you know, now look at that. Hamas was severely, uh, damaged and degraded. And then Hezbollah, you know, begging for a ceasefire. Uh, and now in Iran, Iran sent their best and now they essentially were now begging, kind of like, oh, no, no, please, no, no. How about that? Uh, so now, now you have an opportunity for the first who knows when, where, uh, there could be possible peace. And aren't they ever hold themselves accountable for being absolutely wrong about all of the underlying dynamics. And that's all been shattered and blown away. So for me, uh, it was easy to follow Israel because they all understood and I'm, I promise you that, that beepers and the, the walkie talkies and that kinds of intelligence, uh, will be the kind of a triumph will be studied for the next 30 years. And now, I might disagree with, with Joe Biden, and I am gonna disagree with Donald Trump, but for me it's because I'm following Israel because they're gonna have what's closest to their true alignment.
DS: Just in wrapping up here. Uh, a friend of yours, uh, who we know in common said to me that you recently met with a group of October 7th orphans of the war and he said, ask him about it. So I'm asking you about it. Can you tell me who you met with?
JF: My, well, I have two, uh, well, I have three children, but two sons. And before they arrived I spoke to my son and he got his, he just turned 16 And he just got his permit.
DS: To drive?
JF: Yeah, to drive. And the first orphan that I spoke to was 16 years old. And he described the circumstances of how his father saved, saved people, and his father was killed. And I'm like, I talked to my son, a 16-year-old and talked, just then talked to a 16-year-old who had his, he became a, an orphan and, and all of these, all of these children were able to describe those. Like, I, I don't know how they do it. And, and they were grateful for like, for my support. I'm like, are you, no, you guys are heroes. You guys inspire me. Uh, and I couldn't function if I had to witness or if I've lost my parents throughout all that barabrity. It's like that's the kind of thing that makes it easy. Um, and now, yes, it, it costs, uh, you know, money and I have dented, you know, my own, my base. And I, I, I'm, I know I've lost some kind of democratic support in some of the, in certain quarters, but for me, following the right side in that moral clarity. I, I, I think for me personally, what defines your character are the things that you're willing to do that might even move against your own political interests.
DS: You in your office have posters hung up, photos of the hostages.
JF: Yeah. Well, I, I've met, uh, with countless, uh, hostage families. Uh, I, I've just, each one is, is an honor and it, that started immediately right after and a father and his son were taken as a hostage and he had that iconic poster. And I said, would, would you sign this up? And we um, we, we actually, we put it up, we put it up right outside my office and then we were forced to move it inside. And then I was like, hey, they're all gonna come up in my front room at my office. Uh, because people have stopped talking about it and it receded into the public conversation. Well, not in, not here, it won't. And now as they were released or they were rescued, or they were murdered by Hamas, the, they were migrated from one side to the other and it's, it's closely monitored and they're all gonna stay up, uh, until everyone is brought home. And now look at today what's happening, and they are, they are terrorizing these hostages and they are cheering when they are marching out with caskets of children that they've killed. And it's like, where does this sickness come from? And like, what kind of a society puts up the kinds of organization that has normalized, normalize the kinds of depravity and, you know, where have you lost the humanity to cheering the, the, the death of, of children, uh, and marched out. Like if it was like a Mardi Gras parade.
DS: Senator Fetterman, thank you for your courage, for your leadership and-
JF: It's not, it's not courage. It really isn't. What's courage is being living and forced to, to live in a, in a tunnel or in a, in the dark for 500 days, or being a soldier and, and fighting, you know, for the survival of your nation that's, you know, and being in those families or they're living under the risk of rocket attacks. That's courage. Being a senator that's, that's, that's small compared to that. I never expected if that voice would penetrate, but if it did, I'm just grateful, um, to, to proudly stand with that community, you know, witnessing at a very, very hyperlocal way, like after the tree of life. But now if people have, have sought out, uh, after my voice like that, that's an incredible honor. And, but for me, that's been, that's been easy.
DS: Well then I'll thank you for your clarity. How about that? Thank you for your clarity, and thank you for your time today and, uh, hope to have you back on and, and continue this conversation.
JF: Oh, well, well, I, I do hope, uh, if that happens and I do, would look forward to it, that there's even more and more better outcomes right now. And, uh, we don't have no more cheering over caskets or terrorizing a, a poor woman in the middle of a crowd. But what won't change. If I am back on next, my vote and voice is not gonna change, uh, if I see you and speak again.
DS: Thank you. That's our show for today. You can head to our website, arkmedia.org. That's A R K. arkmedia.org to sign up for updates, get in touch with us, access our transcripts, all of which have been hyperlinked to resources that we hope will enrich your understanding of the topics covered in the episodes on this podcast. Call me Back is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. Additional editing by Martin Huergo. Research by Stav Slama and Gabe Silverstein. And our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.